In this edition of the KidsAI Interview Series, our co-founder Evren Yiğit welcomes David Kleeman, one of the most well-known and respected experts in the children’s media industry. With vast experience and a distinguished career, David has been instrumental in advancing the field of children’s media globally. As the Senior Vice President of Global Trends at Dubit, he leverages his extensive knowledge and insights to explore the evolving landscape of children’s entertainment, media, and learning.
Evren Yiğit: David, it’s wonderful to have you here. We’ve known each other for a long time, and I’ve always admired your contributions to children’s media. Can you start by sharing how your journey in children’s media began and what led you to focus on this field?
David Kleeman: I wish I could say there was a grand plan to my career. I knew early on in college that I wanted to be in children’s media (which, at the time was…TV). I traveled a bit down several “roads” – working on productions, learning to understand research, studying child development, working at PBS for five years. That mix landed me a job running a competition to choose America’s best children’s TV (modeled after the international PRIX JEUNESSE), which later morphed into the American Center for Children and Media – a creative professional development center cutting across education, research, child development and media. It was a great privilege to be in that role, because I was an “honest broker,” not affiliated with any one company, so I was able to gather and synthesize information, sometimes confidential, into an overview of our industries. Ultimately that led me to my current role with Dubit’s research and strategy consultancy and games studio.
Evren Yiğit: You’ve witnessed how children’s media has evolved over the years. What role do you see AI playing in its future development? Are you optimistic about these changes?
David Kleeman: With a 35-year perspective, I more and more believe the idea from Piaget that child development doesn’t change; the context does. The things children and teens need and want from entertainment, media and technology are remarkably constant, but there are so many new tools for creation and platforms for distribution. So, what often feels like “revolution” – constant change in devices and such – is truly “evolution” – new opportunities to serve kids’ needs, abilities and interests.
Having said that, it may be easier to say what roles I *don’t* see AI fulfilling in children’s media. I don’t think we’ll ever lose the appeal of personal, human and humane storytelling. When I watch wonderful kids TV (in particular), I can imagine the creator fully, emotionally and physically engaged in pitching the concept. I don’t believe AI can ever replace that.
I do see AI enabling more people to help their stories “escape” from their minds and hearts and onto a page or a screen. Personally, I can’t draw, but perhaps I can describe to an AI app what’s in my head and have it return image options, from which I can iterate until it matches my vision.
I am guardedly optimistic. AI has been around for a long time, but generative AI is in its infancy. With so many previous technologies, we’ve ignored children’s interests, safety and privacy until things are so far developed that it’s difficult to “unmake” our errors. Gen AI comes along at a time when there’s intense scrutiny on technology and youth, so perhaps this time we’ll work to get it right from the beginning.
Evren Yiğit: At Kids AI, we strongly advocate for ethical, transparent, beneficial AI tools and services for children. What do you think are the key ethical considerations that media creators should keep in mind when integrating AI into content for children?
David Kleeman: I’d say the key considerations are transparency of when AI has been used, and how; cheap fakes and deep fakes that become more and more easy to create (related to the first point, and especially sensitive with teens and UGC); appropriation of young people’s (especially) PII in fueling the machine learning engines; and whether AI will be used to empower new communities and broaden the scope of storytelling, or if it will only be used to drive commercial interests.
Safety and privacy are top issues right now across children’s digital media, and AI will support human moderators in identifying and blocking online bullying, grooming, inappropriate content and other exploitation. AI can speed up recognition of the “needles” in the vast media “haystack,” and spot emerging evasive hacks from those determined to get around moderation.
Evren Yiğit: Personalized content is a hot topic in AI and children’s media and learning right now. How do you see AI being used to personalize content for children and enhance their engagement and learning experiences?
David Kleeman: It’s a little broader for me than just AI. We’ve turned “data” into a dirty word when it comes to young people. I think we need a deeper conversation about the fact that there are some forms of data that need not and should not ever be gathered; other forms of data that are needed in the moment but shouldn’t be kept after the immediate use or session; and finally some types of data that are essential to ongoing enjoyment and benefit from a game or app. This is especially the case for edtech, where an interactive experience must grow with the user, understanding and responding to the child’s capabilities and struggles.
AI can, I trust, make this process faster, deeper and more personal.
Evren Yiğit: How do you think we can tackle AI bias and instead use AI to promote inclusivity and diversity in children’s media?
David Kleeman: I don’t think it’s a “can” question; it’s a “must” question. All the way back in the late 1990s, I heard a speaker in South Africa say “the information superhighway will come to Africa, but will any Africans be ‘driving the cars’?” So many of the powerful tools of creation now are inexpensive or free (the movie camera in our pockets, the game design engine that is free to use, the YouTube/TikTok distribution platform to reach the world instantly), it’s a massive opportunity to empower new voices.
That platforms that will most engage AI are those that are made to create community – social networks, social games, media sharing. This generation has the chance to find or create the communities they need, not just for entertainment or fandom, but to make change in the real world, around climate, racism, sexism, gender, violence and more. Gens Z and Alpha are activist generations with the tools to build massive action.
Evren Yiğit: What are some of the most exciting trends at the intersection of AI and children’s media that you believe will shape the industry in the coming years?
David Kleeman: At this year’s PRIX JEUNESSE, I saw a wonderful example of co-creation using AI between professional producers and children, with a strong media literacy element built in.
In Sweden, there’s an annual 24-part nightly Christmas drama on public broadcasting – essentially an Advent Calendar on TV. For 2023, the professional producer worked with children in a Sami community in the north of Sweden. The children developed the story, and drew their ideas for the characters, then shared their ideas with a generative AI program to render the concept for TV. The resulting show is a combination of the young people’s drama and their reflections on the benefits and drawbacks of working with AI (I believe one called it an “Artificial Idiot” for its hallucinations and creative shortcomings).
Evren Yiğit: That’s very interesting. How do you envision the future for content creators working with AI in children’s media? What opportunities and challenges do you see?
David Kleeman: Dubit’s research shows that an increasing number of young people are becoming media creators, not just consumers. There’s a rising percentage of kids who upload video to UGC platforms, build in Minecraft, or create Roblox games. As hinted at above, AI will simplify creation tools – video editing, game engines, for example – opening the door to new content creators, and sparking the “flywheel” that sees more content drawing more fans, who bring new potential to make creation sustainable, which leads to more content (rinse and repeat!).
In the established creative industries, my fear says there will be job losses in businesses that are already under stress and enduring cutbacks. But, I also believe a new set of roles will be created, for people who are “AI whisperers.” Anyone can feed a prompt into AI and get a response, but it’s a great talent to know how to write the prompts that will get a coherent and on-target reply.
(It’s a little like the idea that anyone can interview a child, but it takes a true qualitative research expert to prepare and guide a conversation that asks the right questions to get honest and relevant answers.)
Evren Yiğit: Exactly. What is your vision for children who will consume AI-driven media? How can we ensure that this media is both enriching and safe for them?
David Kleeman: This is, perhaps, a simplistic answer, but we need to put media literacy education into the school curriculum from the earliest years through post-secondary institutions, woven in across the curriculum. AI is only one of the challenges for young people growing up today – there are the implications of walking around with a powerful, global computer in our pockets; there’s the tsunami of information and misinformation; there are the developmental and emotional challenges of social media; there’s the need to be thoughtful creators and sharers of images, videos and other media. They’re all interconnected, and we’ve not kept up in our learning systems.
Evren Yiğit: Lastly, at the recent Children’s Media Conference, you hosted the session “AI and Kids: Talk to the Bot.” What were the main takeaways regarding AI’s role in shaping children’s media experiences? What were your insights?
David Kleeman: I might start with my great satisfaction and relief that there are people out there thinking deeply about the potential and challenges of Generative AI. From those creating uses to those building educational curricula, from researchers studying what young people are doing now and what they want to do to people contemplating the meaning of “public service” in AI-fueled media, it’s comforting to know that we’re not running blindly into the future.
My primary takeaway is that we mustn’t run away from Gen AI. It’s coming…it’s here…it will be here going forward. When the internet came along, traditional TV people feared that it would take their jobs, and so they were not fast enough to figure out how to make it a partnership. Once you fall behind, it’s very difficult to catch up.
Experiment. Reject that which doesn’t work for your vision, or that feels uncomfortable, or that seems exploitative of children. Keep what feels authentic and helpful. The children’s media community needs to be fully engaged in the development of AI.
Kids AI Closing Insights
Our conversation with David Kleeman highlights the delicate balance between innovation and responsibility when integrating AI into children’s media. AI offers exciting possibilities for expanding creative expression and personalization, but ethical considerations like transparency, inclusivity, and privacy must remain top priorities. David’s insights reinforce the importance of approaching AI with caution while embracing its potential to empower diverse voices and enrich children’s media experiences. At Kids AI, we are committed to supporting the development of AI solutions that enhance learning, creativity, and inclusion, ensuring that they remain beneficial and safe for young audiences. By staying informed and proactive, the industry can shape an AI-driven future that genuinely supports children’s growth and well-being.
